In class on Tuesday we ended our time with an interesting discussion around KIPP charter schools. After watching the 60 Minutes clip, the conversation came about whether the KIPP model was better for underprivileged students. It’s clear KIPP schools target struggling communities to attract less fortunate students to enroll. Some would say the schools are taking advantage of these families desperation while others would say they are given a way out of the cycle of poverty.
One of the well-known differences of KIPP schools to traditional public schools is the extra time KIPP student spend in school. While it has been debated whether the extra classroom time is beneficial for the kids, one thing is certain, it means less time on the streets. Meaning there is less of a chance these students can affiliate with a gang or have the time to be exposed to drugs. This is seen as a positive where, “the average KIPP student spends around 60% more time in school than do their peers in traditional public schools”(Ellison, p.553). School becomes these children’s lives once they enrolled due to the fact that they have no time for any other activities. At KIPP students eat, breath and sleep with learning in mind. But the question in class that some alluded to was if this was truly a healthy experience for these students?
On the other hand to some this intensive KIPP regiment seemed to take the idea of learning to far. Some would say to these students learning was made to be seen as the only thing in life that mattered. As Ellison mentions these students go to school from 7:30 to 5 and on top of this are expected to complete two too three hours of home work once they leave school (p.553). Not only is the extra time in school seen as over the top but the methods the school uses came into question in our class discussion.
The model KIPP uses to teach its students is as regimented and structured as teaching can be. Most notably is the schools strict discipline within the schools walls. In classrooms KIPP uses a “no excuses” model for how they run each school and mold their students. As Ellison describes, “Students are quickly and publicly corrected for even minor infractions and are benched for more serious issues”(p.554) The practices the KIPP model uses as we saw in the 60 Minutes clip, of students being publicly disciplined while other students watched left an impression. Is the level of child reprimanding necessary and how far is to far? Is the level of discipline necessary for getting the same result with these at risk students, or is it worth it rather than to loose students to the streets?
Comments
10 responses to “Is KIPP’s strict discipline model worth it?”
Reconsidering the length of the school day that KIPP charter schools have established, I’m beginning to feel more strongly that it is indeed too excessive. I agree that more time in school keeps students off the streets and out of harms way, but what else does it keep them from? What happens to extra curriculars like sports, clubs and hobbies? Beyond this, what happens to that extra time that you used to be just spent with family and friends? As much as I believe that education is the ticket to success, I don’t think life has to be solely defined by education.
This brings me to the thought that perhaps different students need school in different ways and in different doses. For example, a student that has grown up in poverty with no adult role model may benefit greatly from extra school time. Like I mentioned before, it could keep them out of trouble (gangs, prison, etc.). However, other students may not need extra hours of school to succeed. Because of this discrepancy, should education really be equal for all? Does it even make sense to provide different students with different needs with the same school structure?
The reading we had made KIPP sound a bit like the Marines. I’ve never been in the military, but my understanding that a big part of the goal is to get soldiers to take orders as part of the chain of command. The soldiers are not to question the orders, but simply to carry them out. Such discipline may be necessary to win battles, but I’m not sure it is the best foundation for a democracy.
I do believe in teaching students to be respectful of teachers and of each other. At the same time, within that respectful practice, there should be ways for students to raise issues of concern and critique. Perhaps this is a bit of a contradiction but it is one that I would like to continue to think about.
Children of wealthy parents often learn to question authority and renegotiate the terms for all sorts of interactions at home and in school. See Annette Lareau’s book “Unequal Childhoods” for insight on this. On the other hand children from poorer backgrounds are often taught to simply obey authority. These mindsets can lead to further advantage for those who can alter the terms of the game in their favor. This makes me wonder if KIPP is a force that is reproducing the current social divisions in our society or working to break them down.
When all of their time is spent in school, are these kids getting any kind of physical exercise? When I was watching the 60 minutes video, I never once saw the KIPP students in PE or doing anything other than sit in a classroom. That’s an incredibly difficult thing to do as a child when you have boundless amounts of energy. And since they’re being forced to spend 10 hours in school, they’re missing times to expend that energy after school as well.
Because the KIPP model is so focused on getting kids into college (which in and of itself is not a bad thing) it takes away from other things that help you to develop as an individual. Family. Sports. Hanging out with friends. Clubs. I can see a number of reasons why KIPP keeps students away from these things though: Maybe their family isn’t around, so the school is their family; they probably don’t have enough money for organized sports, so getting involved in the sports scene near them might mean entering into gang territory; their friends might not have the same motivation to succeed and could drain their enthusiasm for the KIPP program; KIPP does offer clubs, but they also take too much time along with the mountain of homework they’re assigned, so they’d rather kids do their work and get caught up than other things.
McKenzie,
I like how you are looking at the students as complete people not just students who need to “get an education.” I am a large proponent of sports, hobbies, clubs, and simply free time. These are extremely necessary for character development as well as general mental and physical health. Personally, I would not be the person I am today without the various sports I have been a part of. I have learned leadership, hard work, time management, self-discipline, and respect through sports. While I could learn some of these in the classroom, the extent and application would be entirely different. Students also need time to make choices. If everything is decided for a child, the moment the child is given any sort of freedom they may run wild. Children also need to learn from their mistakes. If there are no room for mistakes outside the controlled KIPP environment, there is no time for true experiential learning. KIPP can be a great program to teach discipline but may not be beneficial in shaping the complete person.
I like what McKenzie said about different children have particular needs and thus needing school to play different roles in their lives. I think KIPP does work for kids who come from rough backgrounds with no/little family support. School can be for them what they never received from their family, although school serves as a poor replacement. However, kids who do have supportive families and means to do more outside of school would benefit more from less class time and more freedom to pursue sports, clubs, and/or other hobbies. I think that students and their families should take this into account when applying to KIPP schools and determine if this system would be best for their child. I think it definitely works from some kids but not for others and the decision must be made concerning its degree of effectiveness for each student.
I think everyone here made some good points about the fundamentals of education, and how just sitting in a classroom is just one piece of a well-rounded student experience. I do not doubt that the long hours that KIPP students are asked to put in are grueling, and leave students with little time to do much else. However, to that point, I do agree that giving students long hours of school and homework does prevent them from joining gangs and being influenced by negative environments. I wonder if there is a way to incorporate all of these ideas. Perhaps KIPP students ought to spend just as much time at school, but that these hours should include gym, extra circulars and other methods of fostering creativity.
After reading some of the blog posts for this week, I looked at the profile for KIPP on “glassdoor,” a website that allows people to review companies they have worked for. One of the reviews stuck with me–fair warning, this was a long and unhappy review, but I will share their last sentiments:
(from a person who worked at a KIPP high school full-time for 1 year)
“KIPP loses teachers like me–teachers who believe in kids, have a strong work ethic, but are smart enough to realize the how unethical and damaging it is to place such a high premium on student behavior. The overemphasis on data and testing dehumanizes students and removes us from opportunities to educate students toward independence and critical thought.”
This sounded a lot like some of the discussions we have been having in class! As some of the posters have said above, placing so much emphasis on obedient behavior can create more dramatic societal problems down the line. It would also seem that promoting strict obedience would discourage students from thinking critically and creatively. Without a generation that can question the norms, how can innovation even begin to occur?
After reading all the secondary post I see how strongly our class feels about educating a well-rounded student. I do agree that KIPP’s methods can inhibit creativity, questioning of authority, and in some cases perpetuate social divisions. The long school hours take time away from important extracurricular like sports because there is not enough time in the day.
According to the KIPP web page they have 80 middle schools, 60 elementary schools and 22 high schools. So the majority of KIPP students are attending these charter schools at the longest from pre-K to eight grade. Not all KIPP students enter the charter school at pre-K but for arguments sake lets say they do. Do people feel that this span of 8 to 9 years of these students receiving KIPP method instruction, can amount to serious damage? I feel once the student enters high school they will no longer be behind in academics but might lack in some social skills. Do you see it more of a problem to be behind socially or experience wise in sports versus being behind in academics?
The way I see it is that KIPP is laying down the most important part of these children’s education, the foundation. This way they are confident in the classroom and know how they best learn. I feel that there is more time in life for these KIPP students to become better-rounded individuals. While if they do not receive a good foundation of education they are behind from the start and are set up for a long road of struggles with education. This may result in discouragement about education and an unwillingness to want to try in the classroom. Do you think that the rounding out of students in the KIPP programs after they graduate is a possibility or is amount of time in KIPP or their young age too much of a factor that these KIPP schools inhibit their students for life?
Professor I have read Annette Lareau’s book “Unequal Childhoods” and understand how questioning/renegotiation differ between the wealthy and poor. Now that you have brought up the book I can see how these children are at an impressionable stage in life whether they realize it or not. Also it does not help that a majority of the teacher profession is white and the classroom interaction can be a direct representation of not questioning authority or whites for that matter. But I am not too concerned about this as in the 60 minutes clip every teacher that was interviewed was of a minority background. It seems that KIPP programs put a large effort into trying to hirer a diverse teaching staff.
A few people have highlighted the fact that there is no room for students to question their teachers. Although from what I remember from our readings there has been no direct statement that students cannot question teachers or that there is no approved avenue to do this within KIPP. From my point of view it seems many are getting this idea that questioning teachers is out of the question in KIPP schools due to their strict disciplinary measures. Is this correct or am I looking over an instance that has informed us that questioning teachers in any way is out of the question?
Not that I don’t agree that KIPP’s disciplinary methods would seem to not allow students to question their teachers. It just seems like many might be inferring this fact when some KIPP schools may have approved procedures for students to question a teacher teaching a particular lesson? Even if the answer is straightforward like the lesson is to prepare students for a large portion on a test they must take. I do not see it out of the question that a KIPP school would allow this kind of dialog between staff and student.
Mckenzie, I also agree that the long school days do seem to be excessive. However I think that education has to be equal for all within the KIPP schools in order for them to work. I think that the long days absolutely are helping students stay of the streets and refrain from gang violence or illegal activity, but I also think that not all students in KIPP schools are going to participate in this activity if they are given more time for extracurriculars. However, the students in the KIPP schools are aware of what they have signed up for. Watching the 60 minute clip in class, it became clear to me that these students are invested in this school and are trying to do their best as well. Maybe they do not have the strength to say no to bad activity that their friends might be participating in. Maybe they need this extra requirement of school time and school work in order to make better decisions. I think that the students in this school are aware of the time commitment and are putting in just as much work as the next kid to succeed.